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The War Room With Jennifer Granholm

News/Business. (2013) New. (CC) (Stereo)

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01:00:00

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PG

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480

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Us 10, Aaron 8, Jennifer 8, Cuomo 7, U.s. 7, China 7, Aaron Schwartz 5, New York 4, United States 4, Iran 4, Virginia 3, North Korea 3, Michael Steele 2, Dr. Brzezinski 2, John Kerry 2, Dennis 2, Bobby Jindal 2, Charlie Pierce 2, Lawrence Lessig 2, North Koreans 2,
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  Current    The War Room With Jennifer Granholm    News/Business.   
   (2013) New. (CC) (Stereo)  

    January 25, 2013
    3:00 - 4:00pm PST  

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tonight in "the war room," it is a wild world. cat stevens knew it, so should we. [♪ theme music ♪] >> jennifer: so the president won reelection on the promise of strengthening the middle class, and creating a equitable domestic economy. and that message is now forming
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foreign policy as well. senator john kerry laid out his vision at the senate confirmation hearings yesterdays, and it relies as much on economics as diplomasy. >> we know that american foreign policy is not defined by drones and deployments alone. more than ever foreign policy is economic policy. the world is competing for resources in global markets. >> jennifer: the obama/kerry foreign policy doctrine might be it's the economy stupid, and in fact it is really a economic strategy. much of the violence was driven by individuals financial insecurity as a result of the poverty. look at the arab spring which economic grievances lead to
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political revolution. a fruit selling started that protest by lighting himself on fire. his protest lead to the oh eventually overthrow of a decade's long dictatorship, and since then life has improved for tunisian. here is one union worker describing the change. >> the main benefit of the revolution is the disappearance of the state of fear which was dominating a large spectrum of our population. >> jennifer: and even though fear was dominating there is still continued frustration with the new tunisian government's ability to lower unemployment. and then a similar scene is
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playing out in egypt. today marks the two-year anniversary of the reelection of the revolution. but right now in cairo thousands are clashing with police in the very birthplace of the revolution. protesters voice their disappointment with morsi. they say the brothederhood betrayed its original goals. >> jennifer: so we saw the same sentiment emerge in israel's elections this week too. the electorate pushed back
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against conservative benjamin netenyahu. and a new leader gave voice. >> [ inaudible ] these are generations left because of israel's middle class can no longer survive the economics. >> jennifer: his party won the second-most seats after netenyahu's. so this movement really does seem to have some legs and not just in the middle east. we're seeing similar concerns in china. there a boom in highly educated young people has significantly changed the work force in china in the last decade. china now has 11 times as many college students as it did in 1999. and while that sounds like good news, the economy hasn't
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produced enough white collar jobs, so many of those graduates are unemployed, and wages are stagnated, so this is the challenging new world john kerry is going to face. good news is there is no one more prepared to face it. joining us from skype is zbigniew brzezinski. he is a counselor and trustee at the senator for strategic and international studies. dr. brzezinski thank you so much for being inside of our "war room." >> it's very nice to be in that war room. >> jennifer: thank you. it is great to have you. on this issue, will a strategy to help spread economic prosperity work in regions like the middle east or in china? >> it will take time. it will take a lot of time. but in the meantime i'm afraid some of the tendencies
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politically will be increasingly extremist and potentially violent. more so in the middle east than in china. the middle east is much more volatile with the exception of perhaps egypt which is a fragmented region of tribes, quasi states, and it has yet to settle down. >> jennifer: i'm really curious about the my l east, because the middle eastern countries where the dictators have recently been thrown from power, many are saying now they pose more of a security threat to the u.s. than they perhaps even did before because of that instability. is that true? >> yes, but i would put it a little bit differently. i think we have seen the coming to power of the population very much young. they are often unemployed
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restless wanting a voice. and that is good. but with what people overlooked was that the same movement, the same mass uprising the same global political awakening involves passions resentments, and many of them focused on the west, the colonial era, the exploitation. the narrative is very anti-western, and this is why in the middle east i think we're going to be facing increasingly turmoil and hostility toward the west. >> jennifer: what do you advise kerry to do with the middle east. >> to be prudent, not plunge in with force as president bush number 2 did. to operate as indirectly as
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possible, and at the same time promote, one a peace arrangement of some sort, because when that explodes it will be violent and even more destructive. and find some international consensus regarding syria, which means waiting for the russians and chinese to be part of the solution, and last but not least avoid a war with iran. >> jennifer: so are you concerned then -- because iran is so unstable and because we have north korea talking about launching nuclear test missiles at the u.s. do you worry about really unstable countries like those two forming alliances to actually hurt the u.s.? or are they not advanced enough?
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>> i wouldn't call them unstable. they are both very oppressive, particularly north korea. iran is much more complex. it is also one of checks and balances within a kind of religiously shaped [ inaudible ]. but both are hostile do us. but north korea is far more dangerous than iran. iron does not have a nuclear weapon. we don't have any knowledge of when it may have one. in contrast, north korea already has eight atomic weapons, and is now developing and testing a delivery system which we have just announced at some point may be able to reach the united states. so north korea is much more of a serious problem than iran even though our public opinion and press is focused much more on
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iran. >> jennifer: so what does kerry do about north korea? >> well, i think there is a lesson here which might be applicable to iran as well. just this week for the first time ever both russia and china joined the rest of the un security council in passing unanimously a solution expressing concern about what the north koreans are doing and saying. that may not be very much in substance, but those presidents joining us suggests that these countries might -- if we are skillful -- might become partners in trying to warn the north koreans not to overstep the limits of rationality. >> jennifer: so you have written a lot about the potential for the u.s. to sort of lose its hold on being the number one
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global power. you just talked about china or russia. do you see them potentially step going that vacuum? is there a real risk of u.s. decline? >> no, what i have said is that the united states is no longer a [ inaudible ] power. we are no longer capable of imposing our will by the use of force. i think the ten year war in afghanistan showed that. iraq showed that. and vietnam showed that, but we are still the number one power in the world, and will be so for a long time to come, so we are not threatened at this stage by china, nor any longer by russia. we can provide initiative for operation, but we have to be patient and not rely on our own force alone in trying to seek solutions.
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and this is where a good experienced dip low matted a person that has operated on the international arena like korea and a former warrior of the past, they make a great team. >> jennifer: thank you so much dr. brzezinski for joining us inside "the war room." former national security advisor under president carter. >> thank you for having me. >> jennifer: coming up the death of internet activist aaron schwartz brought new at attention to the issue of fair use. lawrence lessig knows the issue better than just about anybody and he is going to join us next. the storm comes, the damage is devastating, and then the chorus, we will rebuild!
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and rightly so but without addressing climate change are we not just reracking the bowling pins? we're teaming up with companies like cisco to help make sure everyone is ready with the know-how we need for a new tomorrow. [ male announcer ] make sure america's ready. make sure you're ready. at devry.edu/knowhow. ♪ ♪
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it's a vanguard world premiere event. >> it doesn't anymore real than this. >> current's award winning original series is back with an all-new episode straight from the headlines. in the minefield of the nation's gun control debate, this could be the most polarizing issue. >> anybody could claim "stand your ground" and they can get away with murder.
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>> only on current tv. ♪ >> a lot of powerful people want to tramp down on the internet, and to be honest there aren't a whole lot who have a vested interesting in protecting us from all of that. >> that was aaron schwartz speaking at the freedom to connect conference last year. aaron schwartz was one of the few who did try to protect internet freedom, and his efforts lead federal prosecutors to charge him under the computer fraud and abuse act for allegedly downloading millions of articles from j-store which is academic articles. last year they threw the book at him. he was looking at 13 felony counts and up to 35 years in
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jail. well aaron schwartz hanged himself in his apartment two weeks ago. he was 26 years old. his family issued this statement . . . in the wake of his suicide california representative has proposed aaron's law, which is a federal bill that would decriminalize portions of the computer fraud and abuse act. it could be a small step in reforming our country's overreaching cyber laws. and it's beyond unfortunately that it took the loss of one of our brightest computer programmers to bring this issue tonight. professor
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aaron schwartz. he's also a professor of law and the director of the center for ethics at harvard university. he is joining us tonight from austin, texas. larry, i would like to welcome you back inside "the war room." >> it's great to be back. >> jennifer: yeah, you knew aaron for 12 years, i'm told and as his mentor and friend -- i'll get to the legal stuff -- but i'm curious what you would like people to remember about him. >> well, i really think of him as the mentor and me as the mentoree. he was around 14 when i first met him, and every single stage of his life, he was pushing people to -- to try to build something that was -- that fit the ideas that he had about what the internet could be, what we could be as a society. by then of his life it wasn't so much internet activism as social act -- activism he got
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me to change a number of things i was working on because of piercing questions we would push and the standard he held us all too. >> jennifer: let me get to the specifics of this case where he was downloading these articles. what did aaron intend to do with the articles? what was he fighting for? >> aaron's view about copyright law was not that we should abolish copyright law. he was very much like the president was when the president was talking about the iraq war. i'm not against all war. i'm against dumb wars. and aaron was against the dumb applications of copyright law. so in his view the idea that journal articles were not accessible to the rest of the world was a dumb application of
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copyright laws, because it wasn't like they were making money from these articles. this was the kind of work that ought to be available freely and broodly, but because of the way the system was working it just wasn't vail. so nobody knows because he didn't say. and what i know i can't reveal because i was actually advising me as an attorney after he was arrested. nobody knows exactly what aaron was doing, but the point is whatever you think he was doing. this was not a terrorist. this was not somebody who was trying to steal credit card information break into government databases and reveal secrets of the united states. whatever he was doing, it didn't deserve the find of punishment which the government was insisting he admit and accept. and it is that overreaching that
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troubles so many of us. because computer law is a law that requires the government to exercise prudent discretion to try to establish between the really bad crackers, and people who might have been motivated by a more idealistic principaled, not a commercial motive which clearly they understood aaron was not. >> jennifer: so the difficulty is how do you carve this right? so in announcing the indictment in 2011 carman ortiz who is the u.s. attorney said . . . now that is an old argument and many would say she makes a point and this is what you're getting at. if i were sneaking into harvard's law library, and
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stealing hundreds of legal articles, i could be prosecuted and the question is how is this different? >> yeah, that statement, stealing with a computer is the same as stealing with a crowbar i think shows she doesn't know anything about computers or anything about crowbars. because when aaron did what he did literally nobody was hurt. there was no business model being destroyed. no artist out there trying to earn money. none of the typical harms that happen when you take a crowbar for example and break open a window and steal jewelry on the other side happened in this kind of activity. and that's why it requires judgment to recognize the difference between what was a political act and somebody who is engaging in the kind of economic harm that these statutes were meant to prosecute. and what is so striking about
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this is you think about other political protesters think about martin luther king who engaged in a lot of activities across the line of the law. he was never convicted of one felony. he was charged of two, and an all white journey exonerated him on both. here is a kid who literally was harming nobody who was going to be charged with 13 felonies and they would not go away until he admitted guilt of 13 felonies. so that's the kind of extremism that i think many people are wondering about now. >> jennifer: they are charging him under this computer fraud and abuse act which is 29 years old, and the technology has evolved so much and this issue of intellectual property, how do you carve this? >> yeah, the design of the law
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originally was we'll trust the prosecutors to make the distinction, and i think this case shows maybe we can't. the kind of changes that are being proposed are changes that make it merely because you don't do what the contract with the -- with the online service provider says, you haven't committed a felony. there are courts where the government insists if you don't do exactly what the online service provider says, it's like a felony too. other people have proposed for example, if you do something like what aaron did not for commercial purposes, earn money or steal in the traditional sense of why a thief steals, the most you could be charged with was a misdemeanor. which is there is no way we should think of you in the same category that we think of a
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13-count felon. >> jennifer: all right. it obviously is a really important issue, and i'm just so sorry this young man -- this brilliant young man had to be treated this way, and it ended up -- you know seeing him lose his life. so lawrence lessig thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. >> jennifer: up next it has become clear to most that superstorms are the new normal. so does that mean there should be a new normal when it comes to rebuilding as well in we'll tackle that question right after the break. blapdz
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>> jennifer: you're back inside "the war room," i'm jenna jameson. it is hard to forget the devastation that hurricane katrina unleashed on new orleans. more than 1800 people died thousands were left homeless cities state, and federal officials vowed to reconstruct. >> and tonight i also offer this pledge of the american people. throughout the area hit by the hurricane, we will do what it takes. we will stay as long as it takes to help citizens rebuild their communities and their lives. >> jennifer: and despite many obstacles new orleans is finally getting back on its feet. you remember the 23,000 fema trailers, it has been almost a year since the last one left. now new yorkers were dealt a similar blow when hurricane
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sandy struck last fall. 64 residents of new york were killed and the damage estimate exceeded $40 billion. andrew cuomo told his constituents not to expect a katrina-style rebuild. >> there are some partials that mother nature owns. she may only visit once every few years but she owns the parcel, and when she comes to visit, she visits. >> jennifer: instead governor cuomo wants homeowners to rebuild on stilts or sell what is left of their home to new york and then move to hire ground. now that proposal is very controversial, but is governor cuomo's plan a good one.
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for an answer we're going to go to james west, who's the editor of "the climate desk." james, great to have you back on "the war room." >> great to be here. thanks for having me. >> jennifer: what do you think about governor cuomo's plan to leave some areas of new york uninhabited? >> this is a super tricky issue as you mentioned before. i spoke to one resident in breezy point which was a very devastated community here in new york and he said to me today, sarcastically, governor cuomo can give me a call. $5 million send it my way. these communities are barely getting back on their feet and governor cuomo risks tackling people to the ground when they are barely getting back on their feet. they have generational cultural connections to these communities.
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on the other hand, of course, he is the only guy talking about this right now, governor cuomo. and most expects talk about this as a long-term option, relocation of people away from treacherous communities because a 100-year storm is no longer a 100-year storm. scientists are predicting more of this. but maybe the conversation is starting about where wily and how we plan our cities. >> jennifer: it's a dramatic example of the impact of climate change, and superstorm sandy got a lot of at attention but there are other impacts too aren't there lots of parts of this country who are in the midst of a record-breaking drought. >> yes, even in a winter a country can still be in a drought.
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more than half of the country is in moderate to extreme drought in the u.s. particularly in a place like kansas which produces more than a quarter of the country's wheat. and farmers are struggle to produce the wheat that they have. and that can mean snow just as it can mean rain. it is incredibly dry out there, so, yes, this is a pressing issue right now. >> jennifer: let's listen for a second to president obama talking about the environment during his inaugural address. >> obama: we will respond to the threat of climate change knowing that the failure to do so would betray our children and future generations. [ cheers and applause ] >> jennifer: well, in reality, of course, the president might have to rely on executive orders to get things done because there are so many people in the
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republican controlled house that don't believe in climate change at all. do you think, james, that there can be meaningful change with executive orders alone? >> this is the big question right now, isn't it? and just to step back one moment. it was important i think to mention just how prominent climate change was in that speech. i personally heard climate scientists and climate journalists cheering around the country. and it took eight sentences in the inaugural address. >> jennifer: woo! >> yeah but of course congress will be contrary to any big grand deals. i think president obama proved its first term that the epa used correctly has some muscle on these things and the courts now
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recognize that they can regulation emissions, and it's a moratorium now because of some of those decisions. new standards about emissions from cars, and anybody walking around the detroit auto show saw there is a whole new range of cars that are trying to hit those 2015 targets. but every expert you talk to here -- everybody you talk to says we need a price on carbon. that is going to be the biggest thing that help drive the cost up and the emissions down. >> jennifer: and that of course is not going to happen with this congress, and i would be surprised, frankly, james if the epa is going to be the means, good luck getting an epa head confirmed, right? >> that is definitely going to be a challenge, and with an
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outgoing epa head who has troubled a lot of concerns here -- >> >> jennifer: yeah especially with no filibuster reform. >> yeah. >> jennifer: it's a tough one. all right james i got to go but i really thank you so much for joining us again. >> always a pleasure. >> jennifer: okay. and now to a cause that we will not stop caring and talking about here in "the war room." in the 42 days since the tragedy at sandy hook now at least 1,234 americans have died as a result of gun violence. 1,234 people. that's a rough estimate from slate magazine. one of them is 21-year-old rebecca foley, the savanna state university student was shot while she was parking outside of her home. and a friend said she was perfect. the kind of girl your son would
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like to bring home to mom. rebecca is yet another example of a promising american life cut short by guns and the number continues to grow.
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but when joint pain and stiffness from psoriatic arthritis hit even the smallest things became difficult. i finally understood what serious joint pain is like. i talked to my rheumatologist and he prescribed enbrel. enbrel can help relieve pain, stiffness, and stop joint damage. because enbrel, etanercept suppresses your immune system, it may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections tuberculosis lymphoma, other cancers, and nervous system and blood disorders have occurred. before starting enbrel your doctor should test you for tuberculosis and discuss whether you've been to a region where certain fungal infections are
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common. don't start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. tell your doctor if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores have had hepatitis b have been treated for heart failure, or if, while on enbrel, you experience persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness. [ phil ] get back to the things that matter most. ask your rheumatologist if enbrel is right for you. [ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biologic medicine prescribed by rheumatologists. ♪ >> jennifer: now our democracy might have its faults too much money in politics all of the bickering in d.c., the electoral college. well, these guys might not have a problem with the last one. the electoral college rules allowed for john quincy adams and others to lose the popular vote but still become president
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of the united states and all but adams have something else in common. they are all republicans. now in 2013, the republican party is fighting back. a popular vote loser could become president much more often thanks to these efforts in republican-controlled states. so lawmakers in florida, wisconsin, michigan virginia, and pennsylvania, the republican lawmakers, have all floated ways of advocating electoral votes by congressional district. this is a sneaky grabby the republicans. so if they got this -- if this were allowed to happen according to a "huffington post" analysis if all 50 states followed the
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republican rule rigging, november's election could have gone from this, a presidential reelection in a 332-to 206 electoral college landslide to this. despite losing by 3.5 million popular votes to president obama. now this map is a scary thought. and it is certainly one more reason to keep an eye on those state houses. joining me now to talk about the game changing plans by republicans is esquire contributing editor charlie pierce, where he leads esquire magazine's politic blogs. >> good to see you, governor. >> jennifer: and political strategist l joy williams is also joining us from new york. >> yes, and snow has already
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started falling. >> jennifer: i'm sorry to hear that. but it's not a reason to deny climate change. charlie a lot of people say that rigging the electoral college like this is never going to happen, but if michigan unions can be gutted is anything possible with these guys? should we be paying more attention to these republican-lead state houses even if the virginia governor said he was not necessarily on board with the plan. >> the electoral college is really a safety school. it's someplace you go when you can't get into a regular college. [ laughter ] >> jennifer: and we should get rid of it in my humble opinion. >> there is no question about that. but bob mcdonald saying he is not going to approve of the plan is not bob mcdonald not signing
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it when it gets to his desk. because the electoral college is this misbegotten acronym it is perfectly within their right to do this. >> jennifer: well in fact joy there is some hope florida's house speaker, will weatherford hold the "miami herald" . . . joy, i mean isn't this -- isn't he right? first of all, don't you think this is just a signal by the republicans that they can't win the popular vote, and they are so afraid that they are got to rig the system. will other states get on board with it? >> i'm glad he believes that. i think he needs to talk to other states who are trying to
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change and rig these in their favor. we just saw the virginia state house passed a bill changing a redistricting law that would favor them in virginia and they did that when one of their colleagues because the senate is split was in d.c. for the inauguration so they knew they had the majority and did it then. they are already moving forward with passing laws under cover while millions of americans are watching the inauguration or doing something else so i'm not convinced that they wouldn't try this as well. >> jennifer: there certainly is an air of desperation by the republican party and bobby jindal has a different plan. here is what he said yesterday. >> the first step in getting the voters to like us is to demonstrate that we like them.
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we have to stop being the stupid party. i i'm serious. >> jennifer: i can hardly wait to hear what you have to say about that charlie. >> his basic theory is the republican party has to get more popular. >> jennifer: exactly. >> that's brilliant. this is the bobby jindal who is funneling public funds to charter schools. >> jennifer: that is the whole thing, if -- if the republican can't be a stupid party, then you shouldn't be doing stupid things like that. >> yeah and that's the point. people aren't into you because you don't appear attractive it's because you are doing policies and supporting
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initiatives that people don't like. there is a reason why people don't like the gop. if you are doing redistricting, gerrymandering districts across the country to basically take away the vote of every day citizens, that's why we don't support you. >> jennifer: in fact -- we're on pins and needles waiting for the rnc's report on hot it can fix the 2012 mistakes by 2016. the question is will the gop reflect a more diverse america? >> i don't have any confidence in that if they are going to have the same people in the room. look at the conservative color you do have across the country. bring them into the room. they share some of your same values and how you can broaden the party. look in oklahoma they just elected a speaker of the house there, bring him. you know, bring other people to the party, because obviously you
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didn't do it right so bring other people into the room to have this conversation. >> jennifer: absolutely. charlie i'm not sure that is going to happen because the same players are leading. today the rnc gave reince prebus a second term. and after the drubing their took in 2012 how does prebus get to stick around? >> yeah, do you that might resinate with what joy was talk about, the conservatives of color around the country. michael steele presides over the party that wins -- michael steele by the way who was actually elected lieutenant governor of maryland resides over the party who has an historic landslide, and reince
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pre prebus gets re-upped for another term. what does he have to do to get fired? who does he have photos of? and what are the photos about? [ laughter ] >> jennifer: there has got to be a reason because it sure don't make any sense. all right. l joy williams and charlie pierce thank for coming inside "the war room" on a friday night. up next manna from progressive heaven. stick around. [ voice of dennis ] allstate. with accident forgiveness, they guarantee your rates won't go up just because of an accident. smart kid. [ voice of dennis ] indeed. are you in good hands?
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desmond tutu said a quote that is one of my favorite quotes. "we are tied together in a web of humanity. i am a person only through you. i can only be a person only through you." that really resonates me and drives my work. the world is becoming an incredibly connected place. mobile phones are really driving
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that connection. at kiva, we run an internet marketplace. people can lend to other people for the purpose of starting a small business, going to school or a variety of other good causes. you can go to kiva.org and you can see pictures and profiles of people from over sixty countries all across the world. you can lend them as little as $25. if they are successful, they will pay you back. dear rixi, you're a honduran immagrant. you're coming to the us, you have an idea to start, you know, a women's cosmetics store or a clothing store. you're going to need a lot of things, ya know, to pay the rent, permits inventory, advertising, marketing so that adds up quite a bit. you're going to need tens of thousands of dollars to start a small busines. there is ten million-plus people completely left out of the formal finical system. banks don't lend to people like that at all.
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there is a lot of opportunity to decrease unemployment, provide employment, provide economic opportunity and raise our standard of living by investing in small business. our hearts are an incredibly powerful thing. good technology can help amplify this power and create an incredibly powerful force that can spread to every country in the world. ♪ >> jennifer: all right. let's head down to los angeles and find out which political figure cenk uygur is going to use as a pinata tonight, cenk? >> both parties. the republicans have -- >> jennifer: of course. >> of course right?
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the republicans have this whacky idea of redistricting. we'll get into that. and then on the democratic side what are we doing? the guy who exposed torture is now going to have 30 months in prison. what happened? i thought we didn't look backward. but when you expose torture they look backward. it's so frustrating. >> jennifer: all right jenks always great. we'll be watching. now for a look at the best of the rest the stories that i don't want you progressives to miss out on this friday evening. remember this ad. >> obama took gm and chrysler into bankruptcy. >> jennifer: that mitt romney attack ad received four pinocchios from the "washington
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post" fact checker. but stewart stephens sent a letter to the fact checker asking for a do over. well, the fact checker did, and he reaffirmed his position saying . . . four more pinocchios for you bud. the facts won't change. so for pete's sake let it go. in other buzz worthy news president obama had an uninvited guest at a recent press conference. >> i'm dominating mary joe
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white, and -- this guy is bothering me here. >> jennifer: a reuter's paragrapher was able to capture the little sucker as he landed smack in the middle of the first forehead. the swatter in chief is not to be trifled with. >> nice. now, where were we? that was pretty impressive wasn't it? i got the sucker. >> jennifer: and finally, up in the sky, it's a bird it's a plane! no it'sbooker. he has done it again. this time saving man's best friend. the mayor received this tweet from a concerned citizen and tv reporter saying make pet owners get their dogs out of the cold saw two dogs freezing.
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so mayor booker immediately sprung into action. did he call animal control? >> no sir, this is run into burning building cory booker we're talking about. so he rushed to the scene and saved cha cha the shivering pooch. watch out. >> this dog is shaking really bad, and you just can't leave your dogs out on a day like this and go away. >> jennifer: oh. all right. everybody someone is always in our "war room," check us out online at our website. thanks to you all for joining us here in "the war room." we' see you back here monday. today's headlines.
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only on current tv.
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